Never heard of Isaiah?

Thu, 02/07/2013 - 01:08 — Haruo

See this abridged screenshot. When I enter "Isaiah 6:1b-3" as a Scripture reference, I am told that the book is unknown. I'm guessing the problem is not the book name; Isaiah is clearly a standard English name for a book in the 66-book canon. So I'm guessing further that what it really means is, it won't take "1b" as a verse number, though this is standard notation for a quotation or reference that begins in the middle of a canonical verse. Why is it programmed this way?

And while we're at it, why are the tunes of refrains treated as the same tune as the entire tune including the refrain? I am thinking in particular of ADESTE FIDELES, but I know there are a number of other cases; and historically speaking, ST. THOMAS ought to be called something else, since it is the second half of a tune in origin.

Comments

Thu, 02/07/2013 - 01:17 — Haruo

Sure enough

When I change it to "1-3" instead of "1b-3" all of a sudden it remembers who Isaiah is...

Sat, 02/09/2013 - 02:30 — Haruo

verse fragments

I'd still like to know why "Isaiah 6:1b-3" doesn't work; is there a place where I can see the rules for qualifying as a known "book name", or for failing so to qualify? I would understand if 1 Nephi 6:1b-3 were in question, but this is Isaiah...

Sat, 02/09/2013 - 11:21 — hplantin

The bible verse parser wasn't

The bible verse parser wasn't designed to handle verses like "1b". Supporting that really wouldn't add much valuable functionality.

Sat, 02/09/2013 - 12:31 — Haruo

I agree and understand but

I agree and understand but given my ongoing efforts to maintain as much verbatim as possible in the transcription of hymnals' contents, it would be helpful to know the limits of such programs. Does it, for example, accept both Song of Songs and Song of Solomon as book names? Canticle( of Canticle)s?? If the limits were published somewhere accessible to editors, and I knew where, then I wouldn't feel a need to create threads on this sort of issue.

Thu, 02/07/2013 - 13:44 — dianneshapiro

Refrains

In the case of "O come, let us adore him" most hymnals identify the tune as ADESTE FIDELES. Which ST. THOMAS are you referring to?

Thu, 02/07/2013 - 17:46 — Haruo

ST. THOMAS (Williams), 6.6.8.6

I'm not disagreeing that the tune of "O come, let us adore him" is called ADESTE FIDELES, nor that it is in fact the same tune as the latter part of ADESTE FIDELES; I just feel that the partial tune (when it is as severely truncated as this case) should be separately treated, since texts set to the whole tune are not interchangeable with texts set to part of the tune. I would prefer a separate authority called something like "ADESTE FIDELES REFRAIN"—adeste_fideles_refrain or adeste_fideles_wade_b—with the link to the whole tune treated under Notes or Additional Information or something.

As for ST. THOMAS (Williams), as The Psalter Hymnal Handbook says,

ST. THOMAS is actually lines 5 through 8 of the sixteen-line tune HOLBORN, composed by Aaron Williams (b. London, England, 1731; d. London, 1776) and published in his Collection (1763, 1765) as a setting for Charles Wesley's text "Soldiers of Christ, Arise" (570).

So I should have said "second quarter" rather than "second half". However, that 16-line HOLBORN (Williams) is not to be found in the database. There is, I think, a possibility that its first quarter or some other portion (or possibly the entirety; there's no page scan to check the actual meter against) is the HOLBORN whose tune authority is here.

Fri, 02/08/2013 - 09:17 — dianneshapiro

Tune fragments

Its mostly a question of practicality. There are a number of tune fragments, for instance responsive refrains to spoken portions of Psalms. To make each of these tune fragments a separate authority would create a number of tune authorities with one instance and make them hard to find. "O come, let us adore him" - just the refrain - has its own text authority, so someone looking for just the refrain should be able to find it. There is a column that can be turned on in the tune listing, which would show the first lines of the texts the tune is sung to, so someone could easily find texts for "O come, all ye faithful" and for "O come, let us adore him."

As for ST. THOMAS, there are 144 instances of this tune fragment, which warrants a separate tune authority, plus there is no whole tune to link it to.

Sat, 02/09/2013 - 02:25 — Haruo